Individual Presence: A Talk With Kylie Divon at Fotografiska Berlin

Samet Durgun: [The start of this answer is lost in the captions.] …where I decided — I wouldn't say this was a project or a book, you know — but to pursue that idea. And that was the first of May 2019, after the celebrations in Kreuzberg, in front of SO36 — where Prince Emrah still has shows, by the way, so it's meaningful. I met her friends there, and they mentioned that there is somewhere called Queer Heim: a shelter for refugees and asylum seekers of queer and trans origin at risk. So this is the starting point of most people. And I was so amazed — mesmerised — by the stories, by the people. I had been taking pictures of queer people for a longer time already, but that was the moment I was like: that's an amazing story, let me get to know more people.

Marie-Luise Mayer: And the title — it feels very warm and inviting, and also sort of intimate and promising. What does it mean in the context of your series?

Samet Durgun: Long story short, honey is what we all want, whatever that is. And I think that is meaningful for the people who are in the book, who come and get their honey, but also for the people who are looking at the book, who can go and get their honey. So it's an inviting book, in the sense that whatever the honey is, it's in the book, so to say. But if you look at where I got the inspiration from: if you're a fan of Robyn, the singer and songwriter, this is from her song called "Honey". There were a lot of ideas coming to me, and I was telling friends about the words that came to me, and Come Get Your Honey was immediately a match. And I was editing this book while I was listening to this album. So it's like a songbook in that sense.

Marie-Luise Mayer: That's very nice, because I remember when we started working on how we wanted to present the images, it was also a lot about rhythm, a sort of beat to it. So that makes a lot more sense now.

Marie-Luise Mayer: How did you two meet?

Samet Durgun: You start.

Kylie Divon: I can share that.

Samet Durgun: I don't remember, actually.

Kylie Divon: We met at Silver Future. I think it was when I first came to Berlin and started working with QueerBerg — QueerBerg was the group with Emrah, Prince Emrah. It was this opening into Berlin's queer life, performances, the stage. And I think it was my first performance there, and you just walked in backstage. You had a white shirt. The backstage was super small — it was basically a beverage storage — and we did a lot of [unclear] there. And I immediately started talking, like, "Hi, oh my God" — and this is the fun thing about you: you're there, listening to me, "Uh-huh, yes, yes, yes, darling." And this is how we met. It was the beginning of 2019.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Exactly the two things you like: posing and talking. Oops. But maybe you can tell us even more about the process. Was it a collaborative process? How did the images come together? Did he tell you a lot about what he wanted from you? Or did he just — how did you get the image that you wanted? And how did you feel — did you get the image you wanted?

Samet Durgun: It's my first time hearing this, by the way. We haven't talked about this yet.

Kylie Divon: I'll expose you. No — working with the group, QueerBerg — back then it was House of Oriental — we had someone there to capture the moments when we were backstage, getting ready, having fun, doing our thing, performing on stage, talking to people — everything we were doing. And it was a comfortable energy around us to capture it. I love people, I love socialising, I love all of this — and I love the camera, like you said. So there was just someone doing all of that. It was a comfortable energy, having someone there to capture these moments.

Samet Durgun: Yes. [A sentence about the people in the book, unclear in the recording.] And I've heard this, positively, again and again from Emrah, for instance: "We feel comfortable with you, so you're always welcome here." So thank you for making me part of your space in that sense.

Kylie Divon: Thank you for being part of the space. And there are also parts in the pictures that we have now in the book — it was corona time, and we would talk. I'm going through some drama, some delulu-ship [?] situations: "Samet, I'm going through it." And it was like, "Oh, let's meet." It was corona time, so he would come over, we would have a conversation, and then of course the camera comes out. He has to take a picture. I'm like, "OK, cool, do that." And then we would walk outside, in a park somewhere, and he takes a picture. And in corona time, when everything was limited — I can say that now, right? — we were meeting more than we were supposed to. Back then it was like, "Oh, the police are coming, we're more than three people in the house." So I would spend time with my friends there, and Samet is also there. We're having dinner or lunch or something. No, dinner. You used to sleep early. Dinner was not a thing.

Samet Durgun: No, no. Still sleeping early.

Kylie Divon: Lunch. So he would come and be there, take pictures, and he was part of the group. But I didn't know that there was a book coming.

Samet Durgun: Me neither, by the way. It was a surprise.

Marie-Luise Mayer: It sounds like a lot of fun, of course, but what drove you in the end to actually take it seriously and make it a book that is really coherent? You can see that it's really thought through. There are a lot of portraits, of course, but also a lot of still lifes, a lot of observations. So when was the moment you thought: OK, there's really something here beyond documenting the fun time I'm having with these amazing people I'm encountering?

Samet Durgun: Definitely there was no book in my head. And I remember — [name unclear], we were at a book fair, I think, a couple of years ago, and you asked me if I wanted to make a book. And I was like, I never thought about that, I don't know. And probably that was the first seed of this idea. But looking back, I think I wanted to make this book because then you can somehow make it coherent. There is a timeline. There is aesthetic coherence. So I thought this thing deserved to be presented — also in the sense that queer, trans, refugee and asylum-seeking lives matter. And I thought it was a great addition to the literature, to be honest, in the bigger scheme of things. But yes, of course I did it for myself, because I thought this was a great commitment to what I did.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Given the often precarious circumstances of the people you portray, I imagine it's quite a challenge to make sure that the people you portray feel seen in the way they want to be seen — that you also get an image you maybe want out of it — but also to make sure they don't get into, I don't know, family trouble or political issues. How did you go about this? How did you navigate consent, privacy, vulnerability and representation in this context?

Samet Durgun: That's a great question. I find our community — queer and trans folks, but also people who came here because of that — quite smart already. They know what they want. So when I was talking about what I wanted to do, and my camera was around, and I was taking pictures, people were quite aware of what it was about. There was no book idea, again, but they knew what I was doing. Some of them said, "I don't want to be in the book." Some of them didn't even say that verbally. Some of them said, "Could you please use a pseudonym?" — that's why there are also pseudonyms in the book. Some of them didn't want to show their faces. I was almost pathologically direct about consent. Especially if I sensed that somebody was as much of a people-pleaser as I am — that it was hard for them to say no to something — I would sometimes ask, "Could you please tell me if you don't want to be in this picture?" So that's how I did it.

Marie-Luise Mayer: And do you have any memories, from the perspective of being shot?

Kylie Divon: I think we were seeing the camera, too. We knew we were being captured, and we knew where the pictures were going — on the internet or something — because we had the QueerBerg page, which shared a lot of Samet's work. So yes, people were really aware of it when you were taking the pictures.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Your portrait in the exhibition shows you wearing a McDonald's uniform. It's a very large portrait — you can't miss it. And I mentioned the story briefly in the intro; there was a big media outreach and everything. Would you mind sharing the whole story with us?

[What follows, into the next chapter, is Kylie's own account of her dispute with her employer, as she told it on stage. The case ended in a settlement at the Berlin labour court in January 2025 — a settlement, not a judgment — and the company did not admit discrimination, as The Berliner reported.]

Kylie Divon: Which part? I worked there five years. And it's funny — there's a whole relation to why I even came to work at McDonald's. I needed to move to Berlin — my asylum had just been accepted — and I wanted to move here with my family, the family that I met, and everything. And the first thing that came into my head was, "Oh, McDonald's — I'll just find a job and work there." And then corona came, and I was like, "OK, this is comfortable, I'll just stay here."

I come from Libya, and we have this thing where the best thing you can be is either a doctor or an engineer. I always make fun of them: an engineer to build a military, a doctor for the soldiers. Wow — such a project. So coming from this background, you don't know what you want to do with your life. So I stayed there until I found out what I wanted to do. And during this time, this process of finding out who I am, one of the things was that I got hit by a car — and I chose to show my beautiful leg, where I broke my leg — and that actually changed my life. I said: I was about to die without living. That's when it hit me: OK, I need to actually be alive, and if I die next time, I will die alive. I don't know if that makes sense. And then I started being the Kylie that I am.

So in my head it was: OK, now I need to navigate through society, and everything, as the woman that I am. And that's how I started going to the women's — yes, we have changing rooms at McDonald's, by the way. So I started going to the women's changing room. Even before, I wasn't changing with the men; I was changing on my own. Five months after I started going there, I walk in — it was around 5:50 a.m. — and I sense this energy from my colleague, a whole shock: why are you coming into this room? I was like, OK, I'm just going to ignore it. I walked in, and then I hear her voice, aggressively: "What are you doing here?" "Changing." "No, no, this is not the right place." I'm like, "Where?" "With men."

At that time […] I was a little bit chubby, so when I wore a bra I had a whole cleavage. And I raised my shirt: "Do you think I should change like this, with men?" Because for her it didn't make sense […]. So I tried to reach her [unclear], to explain to her how this is uncomfortable for me and for others. And that's where the crazy moment came — [the colleague makes a remark about Kylie's body, not quoted here] — and that's when I was like: no, she didn't.

So I go to the management, and the management understood her. I was like, OK, gaslighting [?] at this point. And not only gaslighting — like, what are you…? And this is a whole political thing; it's happening on the internet. There's the USA, and a while ago there was Beatrix von Storch, who just attacked Tessa Ganserer, and so on. So people are aware that this is a problem. And now the management is like, "No, we can understand her, and you have to knock." They made a whole scene. I was like, "You know what? I cannot work. I'm going home." And he's like, "Oh, you cannot just not work on the same day." I was like, "That was not a conversation, that was a statement. I'm going home."

So then I planned to meet human resources at McDonald's, and that's when they said […] you have to change on your own, or knock to ask if it's OK to change with people. So it's like I have to ask people if I'm woman enough to walk into the room and change. And that's clear discrimination: you're treating me differently because of how I am.

Meanwhile, McDonald's US — oh my God, not US. If you go to Google or YouTube and write "McDonald's Proud Crew", from 2022: McDonald's made this advertisement for Pride where a transgender person walks into the changing room and changes, and it's like, "Oh, we celebrate diversity" and whatnot. I was like, hmm, OK, I have something to do now. Expose them.

So I asked them for a protocol — a paper writing all of this down for me. Why? The Jobcenter. I don't want to be just sitting at home without explaining to them why I'm not working, because this is affecting me. They're like, "Yes, OK, sure." A month later I get a paper — the audacity of McDonald's — telling me all of that. I was like, wow, cool, now I even have proof. They cannot even deny it.

So that was the moment I first asked them for compensation, because that's Germany's law and so on: you cannot just sue them or whatever — you ask for compensation, and if they say no, then you take them to court. So they agreed on paying something different. I was like, "No, I want this as compensation." And they're like, "Oh, we can't." "OK. See you in court." The whole thing was: I want them in court. I want this to be big. I want people to see everything. Because part of it also comes from my background: I left my whole country and family to come here and live free, the way I want, and now I have a whole new family in Berlin — at McDonald's, at work; we call it the Mac family — and now they're being like this. Are you crazy? I'm not going to walk away this time. I walked away from my country, but I'm not going to walk away here. So I did this whole thing and made it bigger. And if you google "Kylie against McDonald's", you'll find it on the internet.

Samet Durgun: And I think the picture upstairs — kind of, now, looking back — reflects how you feel about McDonald's.

Kylie Divon: No — at that… I have the picture; you're going to see it later. I'm holding a cigarette and I look intense, like I'm thinking of something. When I saw the picture, I was like: oh, was I planning how to sue them?

But yes — in the end I went to the court appointment, the first one, and they asked me, "What do you want?" And I just decided on the same day to tell them: I want to go back to work, and I want to go into the women's room. And they're like, "Bring her back to work," yes. So now the whole of McDonald's is like, "What? She's coming back?" Because they thought I was just disappearing. Yes, she's coming back. And suddenly I was treated like a queen. The whole PR is there, and HR, and everyone. I was like, OK, we do.

And there was no problem in the end. I was just changing there. And then suddenly I started sharing my […] experience with the other girls, and we're like, "Oh, this." And they're like, "Yes, my body here." I'm like, "Oh my God, yes." And then everything was OK in the end. So it was just drama for nothing. Happy end. And I took the money and I left. Sorry.

[Kylie's own account of her dispute with her employer continues here.]

Marie-Luise Mayer: I wouldn't say it was for nothing. What do you think made them change their mind? Was it publicity? Was it the public discourse? Or was it maybe even just engaging with your story — actually starting to listen?

Kylie Divon: No — I mean, I cannot go into their heads, but I felt like they weren't scared of the law. They were more scared for their image. It's what they present: "Oh, we're diverse." And they didn't know, or didn't think, that I would go and bring that video out there. I'm like, you did this, and now… So HR and PR — they don't know each other, they're not working together. You're telling the whole world, "Oh, we, you know, diversity" and so on, and what's happening inside is not the same. And I think when that went out to the media, that's when they became more careful. Because there were also moments when I could see the body language of people who work there — they're chill — and once they see me walking into the restaurant, about to start my shift, they get stiff. It's like they start performing: "Oh, the cameras are here, be careful, she's here. Take care of what you say, take care of what you do." And I think that was the thing that made them take this more seriously. They knew the spotlight was there.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Yes — and also you coming back to claim the space, and not just hiding away and saying, well, you get the stage, basically. Would you say that things in society are somehow changing, for better or worse?

Kylie Divon: Which part of society? Where? I mean, if I say yes, it's a lie, and if I say no, it's another lie, because it depends on the space. Berlin is so much better than other places. When you walk outside and you see the diversity of people here — it started to be more OK: we're here together. Even though the crazy thing that actually happened to me was at Berlin Hauptbahnhof — the main station — at McDonald's. It sounds crazy. But I think the more we're visible with our identities — every person — the easier it is for others to change, or to adapt, or to just…

I think there's also a part where people are projecting their own problems. Someone who was trained to be the best thing is now starting to see that they're not, and then they see someone who, in their head, is less than them — and now that is the reason for their own problems. That's the psychology behind it. And then this whole — what they call — circus starts happening: discrimination, or hate speech. It's all the projection of their own insecurities and problems.

Samet Durgun: Yes. On that, by the way — the projection of insecurities, et cetera: it is really intimidating to meet somebody who knows what they want, and who had to create themselves — and I mean a lot of trans people, or queer people in general. And I think the me before the book and the me after the book are different. Yes, my family knew my — let's say — identity, et cetera. But then I also posted my picture in a belly-dance costume of Emrah's, for instance, on Instagram, and it was so freeing. And I've learned so much from the trans community — of course from your hardships and how you came through them, but also: we know how fluid these things are, and we know self-definition is possible. So that taught me a lot about myself.

Marie-Luise Mayer: So the series — can we say it's also shaped by your own identity and experience?

Samet Durgun: Looking back, 100 percent. I thought I was observing, but I was in it.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Sharing experience always means sharing stories, and encountering many different destinies and realities and experiences. Are there more stories that touched you, that you encountered while working on the project, that you might want to share?

Samet Durgun: I'm interested in strong personalities, and also in personal stories. So every meeting, every time I met somebody, it was all those things that we talked about. But maybe one worth mentioning here is one of my friends, Reza, who is not with us anymore — who passed away, and whose pictures are upstairs, by the way. They said that they wouldn't have come here if they had known how hard it was. And their hardship also didn't end in Berlin. But even the physical journey of it: things like — they moved through snow, and they were thirsty, and I was like, how is that possible? But it was. Or waiting months in Greece to flee to Germany, and not even being able to brush your teeth. I've heard so many stories like these. I was like, oh my God — so many brave people, but also so much risk taken just to be themselves, just to be with people who are like them, or who understand them. Many people take that for granted, of course — if you're in a straight relationship, it's easier. But everybody else has those hardships.

Marie-Luise Mayer: That's maybe a question for both of you. Did working on this project, and being a part of it, also change your perception of what home and family can mean?

Kylie Divon: It's constantly changing. And I think it has to do with the safe space, where people accept you and [unclear] and care for you, and give you the things that you couldn't…

[Someone on stage suggests: "That is missing, maybe?"]

Kylie Divon: Missing is… Yes — I use "missing" because I didn't get that from my family. So I came, and I found this community, where they relate to me and we relate to each other, and we're there for each other. We have fun together. We're fighting, and then we're back like nothing happened. So it constantly changes. It depends on where you are in life, I guess.

[A brief exchange on stage, unclear in the recording.]

Samet Durgun: For me too — I loved Berlin as it was, but the people I met through my camera, and through Come Get Your Honey, definitely added depth. And I'm still happy to call you my friend, happy to call Emrah my friend. We are in touch, and there for each other in the bad times and the good times. So yes, this gave me friends.

Marie-Luise Mayer: That's beautiful. How did you get to take the pictures the way you did? To me, they have a very poetic and very quiet tone. The quote I mentioned earlier, that it's more about listening, really makes sense, I think, when you look at them. How did you go about it — did you decide on a visual language before you took the pictures?

Samet Durgun: That's a good question. This is also something I somehow intellectualised after all these things happened. But Viviane Sassen — who also showed recently at Fotografiska — she had… I'm assuming I'm remembering this right, but I think I do.

[A brief interjection, unclear in the recording.]

Samet Durgun: And she said there was one picture which shaped her whole imagery. And I was like, wow, that's an amazing idea. What is that image for me? So I was looking for that: what are the best images that talk to me? What do they have in common? The colours, the camera type you're using, the lights, the mood, the sun. So I started paying more attention to this. I tried a lot of different stuff — you remember all those flashlights. But in the end, I really thought the pictures started selecting themselves for this book. I was literally putting in a thousand pictures, and maybe one of them would fit this book. And I listened to that — I'm inclined to that idea of Viviane Sassen's. It really inspired me that way.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Did you find one of the pictures that did shape your imagery?

Samet Durgun: The cover was like a fruit, to be honest — like the cherry on top. I think one of them was certainly a picture above, in this exhibition: Prince Emrah with a transparent top. I thought that was an amazing shot, and I was seeking that, yearning for that.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Would you say there are, maybe apart from Viviane Sassen, other photographers or artists who shape your artistic language?

Samet Durgun: Oh my God, so many. Resonation, inspiration, all of those. I love psychologists, too — Esther Perel, Brené Brown. But also conceptual artists like Marina Abramović, Shirin Neshat. This is the moment when I have to come up with all those names. There are many artists and many pictures in my head that shaped it. But I was really looking for what makes them good — that was an exercise for me. Why am I attracted to this picture and not that one? Or this project and not that one? So it's a little bit of a soup. ADHD minds — it's coming from everywhere.

Marie-Luise Mayer: What were some of the reactions and responses to the book — and to being part of the book — from the community, from people who saw it, from strangers who maybe randomly encountered it?

Samet Durgun: I think before the book, we all saw these pictures and we loved them, as a community. That was one thing I felt happy about: we chose them together, somehow. Everybody was happy with their pictures. So we definitely deselected — took out — things that we had taken together. Even people who didn't want to be in the book — I have pictures which I will never publish. But the external side was also a great feeling of validation. I was like: does it also have a meaning for others? There were a lot of libraries that own the book now, like Stanford, Harvard, Getty, the national libraries of France and Germany. Also people who interviewed me, like Adela here. So there were a lot of people outside of this book who were pretty interested in it. So I think that was a success in that sense.

Kylie Divon: I have the book, of course, in my house. And what I really enjoy doing when I'm showing this book to people is telling the stories. I'm a storyteller — if you haven't recognised, by the way. I like to tell the stories, like the building that is behind Suryani's building. And then I talk about who lives there, Suryani, and the connection. And then I tell them more about our friendship together, and all of this. And there was also a funny thing in the book: you have a QR code of me sending it —

Samet Durgun: Thank you for promoting the book. There is a QR code which you need to scan to listen to Kylie.

Kylie Divon: Kylie, yes. I sent him a voice message saying, "Oh, your friend is a star" — I was talking about myself, being the narcissist that I am. And then he took that voice message, put it in a QR code, and just put it there in the book. So that is also one of my favourite parts, because it's not just pictures anymore — there's also a voice to it. There are stories inside.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Well, now the images are in a museum, in an institution —

Kylie Divon: Such a historic moment.

Marie-Luise Mayer: It is. Do you have a specific wish for how the audience engages with it? What would you wish for viewers — what should happen with them when they look at the images?

Samet Durgun: Do you want to go first?

Kylie Divon: No, you go.

Samet Durgun: Showing the images in a museum context is definitely different from just swiping through pictures on your phone. You are here to see something. And museum literally means "seat of muses". It's a perfect place to exhibit my muses, because I think they were — I had a lot of muses who made it into this book. And I hope that people will take the time to look at the details, because there are. And I also love the fact that — for instance, because Kylie's portrait is bigger than life — I always like to make it a little bit intimidating. And thank you for providing that space for us. You're not looking at some journalistic thing; you're looking at humans. Because I think a lot of bad things happen in this world because of a lack of individual presence. If we look at wars, animal abuse, refugee stories, everything — you can only see somebody as no one if there is a lack of individual presence. So that's why I hope that you will have the individual presence in those pictures when you're visiting, seeing the pictures. Thank you.

Kylie Divon: My turn.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Would you like to add anything?

Kylie Divon: I was waiting for this moment. The thing is, a museum is always about history and so on, but you get to see people who are right there, now, in the pictures, and moments captured. I don't know if there are people before us, after us — there might be, there should be — but these are people who are queer immigrants, who went through a lot in life, and their just existence on its own is a statement. So you're looking at history.

So many claps. Thank you.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Thank you. I think it's a good moment to open this up, to see if there are questions from the audience. Thank you so much for sharing all of this, and for these amazing pictures — and for these amazing, not last words, but, you know — you got the applause. So, yes. Thank you.

Samet Durgun: Thank you for the questions. They were so meaningful. And thanks to you, too. We are literally here for you, so thank you for coming, and for making the time.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Feel free — don't be shy. Catch them while they're here. If you have any questions, let us know. We have the microphone. We can also still translate questions into German, if you like. Please don't be shy, otherwise […] will bring more questions, so that it's not awkward that we're waiting for your questions.

Kylie Divon: You can ask me about my dress. It's actually Versace. I was waiting to say this.

Audience member: I did actually want to ask: you started working on the project in 2019, and many images are from [unclear]. What are you working on now?

Samet Durgun: Great question. I think what it taught me is that I follow my instincts [unclear] — since I have a lack of memory, but also a lack of imagination, to be honest. I just see something in front of me and I know that it's beautiful, and that's how my imagination works, in a sense. That's why I always bring my camera and talk with people. There is no specific project in mind, but things are cooking. And it's going to be informed by my friendships and where I spend time. You can follow me — we can follow each other on Instagram. That's it. How about you? Where are you going? Well, first of all, you can follow her on social media — she's so fun. Smash that button.

Kylie Divon: You'll be trapped if you follow me. There are like three videos of me every day — "Hi, by the way, that happened." OK, now I need to share a little bit more of who I am and where I come from. Who knows Libya? OK, some people. That's a good question. So, since 2011 and Gaddafi and all of this, nobody has heard anything about Libya except this trans woman here. We don't have a queer community that is out there on the internet or any platform. So Libya doesn't have a queer community, basically — until I came out on the internet and outed myself as the first.

Samet Durgun: You outed the country, literally.

Kylie Divon: Literally, yes. There was no trans person. Some people in the comments tell me, "Oh my God, you exposed us." I laugh about this, because I know what they think. I was raised in this society and I know how they think, so sometimes I just laugh about what they say: OK, I know why they're saying this. […] I used to go to the mosque, and I know the Quran, and when people say, "You? What?" — I'm like, yes, me. We're a Muslim country, conservative and all of this. So when I came out to the media, I got to know more of who I am, my journey, and where I stand in life. And one thing that I'm really interested in is IT. Weird, right?

[A brief exchange on stage to confirm: IT, as in information technology.]

Kylie Divon: And with the crazy things happening around the world — Trump was like, oh, I will let go of Europe, I will not do Europe; and then Ursula von der Leyen was like, oh, we will protect Europe, and so on — I was like, oh my God, such a vibe. I can actually study something where I can protect, or contribute to protecting, Europe, because my own country failed to protect me. And that's how I came to the conclusion: I'm going to study IT and do that. Anyway, that's my personal life. It's all out there on the internet — I don't have a personal life anymore. But besides that, I'm doing a lot of music, art, vlogging, whatever comes my way. I just wake up and I'm like, so what's happening today, what's the mood — is she crazy, is she nice? — and then I do the thing. Just follow me on the internet; you'll understand more.

Samet Durgun: Such a cool answer to this question, by the way. Wow.

Kylie Divon: Thank you, thank you. I hope that's enough of an answer. I can go on.

Marie-Luise Mayer: Well, we're not going to kick anyone out — we're going to have a nice evening here. Oh, I see a question there.

Audience member: I'm just being very selfish to ask this question — from photographer to photographer, basically. I know you, in a way — how you document, and so on, how we are in community together. Do you have an instinct, or a moment of realisation, that OK, maybe this work is done? Because this is something I reflect on a lot. I don't have this. So I was just curious, because you are talking as if Come Get Your Honey is done, but I know that you are still around us, photographing the queens and the muses and the legends.

Samet Durgun: That's such a good question. I never thought about that. But thinking about it: if you look at really big artists, who could afford lifelong projects, they would work on stuff like technology, or the environment, or flowers. And we, because of our identity — so many layers — are expected to follow one path. So I see it as part of the paths. And in this realm of, let's say, artists that I'm inspired by, I'm choosing psychology, relationships, and how they reflect in the pictures, in a way. So what I'm doing more now, as a people-pleaser, is learning how to say no to myself — I try to listen to myself. Do I want to be here? Do we want to meet? Do I want to take a picture now? And then I will see where it takes me. But I think Come Get Your Honey, as a project, had to be packaged, wrapped and done, because it had to be out there somehow. This story was too precious not to show it this precisely. Let's put it this way. Thank you, [name unclear].

[Closing — Marie-Luise Mayer invites everyone to get a drink and meet upstairs in the exhibition, to finally see the images everyone has been talking about. There is a reminder from the stage that it will be busy there and to be mindful of the walls, then thanks all round.]